Things to put in TresEd :)

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Nick3069
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by Nick3069 »

Woah! :o Did anyone notice the "Trespass 2" folder in the top right corner? Probably not about Trespasser 2 and just a second Trespasser folder, but still...
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by T-REXHarley »

lol, id be so funny if they announced trespasser 2. and its like "today, the people who brought you trespasser, have announced that they're realesing tresspasser 2 today. they also stated that trespasser 2 has been finished since the beta of trespasser 1, they just like to f*** with everyone and rub it in there faces that there company is 67 years exactly ahead of everyone elses technology. its estimated that a computer that can actually run this game should be realeased with the handheld xbox and the playstation 3 with fun games. the HP 50000001 desktop super fat will have an nvidia 18880 GTS UVR and hold windows vista 128 bit with 1 terabite of ram. its estimated to get around 10 frames on trespasser 2 with the lowest settings. more news on this tommorow."
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by machf »

Been looking at TresEd's behavior.. apparently, with some levels (including TC Isle), if you reload the level, the height of objects relative to the terrain will vary. What now appears over the terrain, after reloading will appear beneath it, but after reloading again will be back over it. This is probably related to what some people have reported about things not being at the proper height after editing their levels in TresEd...

Not all levels are affected, don't know what determines it...
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by Draconisaurus »

Ah, you're just now getting to see this, cool. ;) Well I'll explain it all again, I suppose usually I talk about this in instant messaging... maybe you've read it before but thought I didn't know what I was talking about. ;)



Modified retail terrain is ever and always infinitely recommendable to use for new levels over a grayscale imported terrain. As has been discussed countless times, TresEd (and its developer(s)) does not fully understand the WTD format and when it makes it from scratch, problems abound. The larger a TresEd-made WTD, the worse manifestations these problems have. The problems are:
  • Disappearing faces. If you'll notice while walking around in a TresEd-made terrain, close terrain faces viewed at an extreme angle compared to the line of sight will just disappear (showing blank space instead, same as the fog color, which is often white). I didn't even notice this when I began making JPDS, JPXTom (ex-leader) asked if it could be fixed and I never thought it was that important. I still don't think it's a major concern but gamers with less tolerance are likely to pick it out easily.
  • Render/physics differential. The exact physical shape of the terrain does not match what is rendered ingame. It's not a matter of being a certain amount above or below all around, it's just an entirely different (though fairly close, basically) shape. This means sometimes when you drop your gun, it will sink into the terrain and you'll probably want to activate bones mode to find it again (the weapon shadow often gives a misleading idea about where it is and may only hinder attempts to retrieve it). Other times, the physical height in a given spot is actually above the rendered one and just provides for some odd effects. All this was a major problem in the first year and a half or so of JPDS1, and we determined that the best way to help it is to give greater quad division (the same philosophy which gives greater terrain texture res). Somehow, the greater detail gives a smaller margin for error in the physical shape, but it's never perfectly aligned.
  • Terrain Edit Mode vertex height snaps. I have no idea why.. must be something to do with the incorrect format creation.. but when moving a terrian vertex in TE mode with the Vertex tool, if the terrain was created by TresEd, it will snap to certain random height values. :? Verticies can have any height in a retail terrain. This problem also makes the auto-quad combining nature of the WTD even more frustrating, as minor height differences are impossible when the next "snap" up or down is equivalent to a few feet. It's generally a hassle and gives headaches when trying to make desent, realistic terrain in finer scales.
  • Last and most annoying.. ingame height vs. TresEd height. There are 4 aspects to this one problem.. first is simply that terrain height in TresEd is not what you get ingame and of course that's very annoying for placing objects at the right height. Again, this problem is more noticeable in larger WTD files but it even became an issue with buried dead compies in JPDS~testing that were not buried in TresEd. Second aspect is the two different heights you get in TresEd. Here's what we need to do in JPDS whenever we want to put new objects around: 1) Open the level. 2) Open Terrain Edit mode. 3) Immediately close Terrain Edit mode and tell it to save changes (even though there were none); TresEd regenerates the terrain as if it were new. This new height is closer to the ingame height, but neither is correct. The exact height differential at any given point varies entirely and there is no formula for guessing where ingame height is based on what you see in TresEd; it should be noted that the two TresEd heights (and ingame height) will change whenever quad division in the terrain is altered (larger changes meaning more height difference). Third aspect is that what is displayed in Terrain Edit mode is only a vague representation of both what you get in regular TresEd viewing and what you see ingame. The fourth aspect is the change in TresEd terrain shape between the two rendered heights.. (it goes back and forth each time TresEd reloads the terrain, almost like two different seed values). I'll go ahead and fetch a few images for this one.
    Initial:
    Image
    TE Mode:
    Image
    Regenerated:
    Image
    Best to view them as layers in a photoshop window.. But yeah, the second TresEd rendering (3rd pic) looks more screwed up and is in fact closer to the shape you'll see ingame. The initial one is closer to TE mode but still altered, most noticeably in areas that are intended to be flat.
Anyway, there you have it. The next version of startlev I release is going to use the contestlev WTD file, as it's the perfect beginning template for any level that will fit in a 1024^2 space. JPDS could never take advantage of this because each of its levels are significantly bigger than this. :?
These problems are all reasons why I heavily anticipate Rex's terrain editing program, but I'm doubting it will be finished while JPDS is still in production..

Oh, just another little side-note.. Machf, your method of importing a terrain TPM as a class object was quite brilliant and can be used in the special way of exporting a TresEd-generated, heightmapped terrain, bringing it into a level which uses retail terrain, and using the wireframe model as a base for creating the new one with TE-mode tools. A highly effective procedure, to be sure...
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by machf »

I was refering to #4, TresEd playing ping-pong with the terrain... that's something to add to the "Things to fix in TresEd" list.

As for the rest... well, Trespasser approximates the actual terrain. If you read the t-script reference, you'll see there's an actiontype and some values that control the accuracy. Unfortunately, extremely high accuracy may make the game crash... I believe the value was "Pixel error" or somesuch, the smallest the value, the most accurate the terrain is rendered, but as I said, with smaller values the game crashes under certain conditions.
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by Draconisaurus »

Interesting @ terrain detail values.. as a last resort, that could be used to fix crashes with certain levels, however the quality setting within Trespasser also has quite obvious affects on rendered terrain detail (in ATX2, this is controlled ingame by the [ and ] keys). I think using the quality settings is one thing we skipped when trying to help others play TL1..
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by RexHunter99 »

Hmm, that would most definitely help me play TL1... In fact I may just go do that when I play Tres tonight.

oh, I never thought of opening and saving Terrain edit mode at immediate startup! That would have helped in my older project...
Draco pretty much said everything I wanted to say... I guess i better look into the WTD format some more before attempting a Viewer/Editor.
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by machf »

The WTD format is one of those things Andres said he didn't give more details about because it was "too technical"... and now we haven't been able to contact him anymore. Argh. Imagine what it could save us...
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by Draconisaurus »

Heh, I'm more than half tempted to organize an actual search party to go find him IRL. It would probably be worth the gas and if I keep the search party small, we could just sleep in the car.. would have to do it during the fall or spring when temp's are good. What city do we think he's in again?
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by machf »

Wellington, New Zealand. I'd like a good look at your car, if it really can manage to get all the way to it crossing the ocean and all...
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by Shadow Wolf »

machf wrote:Wellington, New Zealand. I'd like a good look at your car, if it really can manage to get all the way to it crossing the ocean and all...
maybe it could be done by ferries...
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by Draconisaurus »

HOLY @#$%#@!!! You've got to be frakin kidding me, he works for weta?! I'll start saving money for the plane tickets right after my comp upgrade. :yum:
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by machf »

No, he works for Sidhe Interactive, as has been mentioned before...
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by Draconisaurus »

Hmmm.. interesting. Yeah I knew the location hadn't quite come up before (in a place where I've seen), I think I thought he was in CA like Big Red.. That would still be the perfect excuse to visit Pete's HQ and track down Andres at the same time, heh.. heh..
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Re: Things to put in TresEd :)

Post by RexHunter99 »

Unfortunatly TresEd never was openSource, Andres keept his work undercover because of the heavy research involed in creating all routines to edit a Trespasser-Level. I dont think if it is worth re-creating another TresEd but maybe someday someone will...u never know, in a place like TresCOM anything can happen
:lol: And now I've come around with the formats! I am trying my best to produce a 'new' TresView tool.

Suggestions away! Any are welcomed. Though not all will be implemented.
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