Some terrains

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Re: Some terrains

Post by machf »

Well, I've had them lying around for quite some time, it's just that I grabbed them now to test that square from the Plains file... in the past I've used some of them to start levels for Carnivores 2.

Though they work better in Trespasser since we can adjust the vertical scale...

Anyway, here they are in 512*512 subdivisions (I left out the .trr files since they unnecessarily increase the filesize by ~3 times):
Attachments
StHelensAfter512.zip
(438.21 KiB) Downloaded 476 times
StHelensBefore512.zip
(441.12 KiB) Downloaded 458 times
Oahu512.zip
(206.01 KiB) Downloaded 464 times
Hawaii512.zip
(186.53 KiB) Downloaded 454 times
Titicaca512.zip
(427.65 KiB) Downloaded 467 times
Volcano512.zip
(295.39 KiB) Downloaded 447 times
Roraima512.zip
(462.01 KiB) Downloaded 471 times
GreatCanyon512.zip
(494.24 KiB) Downloaded 451 times
Lima512.zip
(190.18 KiB) Downloaded 458 times
Arequipa512.zip
(399.15 KiB) Downloaded 449 times
RapaNui512.zip
(107.69 KiB) Downloaded 436 times
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Re: Some terrains

Post by machf »

Well, as they say, "there's no kill like overkill".
I went ahead and imported the 2048*2048 heightmap with TresEd, to compare the results with the method used by the TresTeam using displacement maps. I found out some important things.
  • TresEd rotates heightmaps by 180 degrees. No wonder I always needed to rotate TresEd-extracted heightmaps first to match Zandor's map...
  • Here's a screenshot of the same location fromn the earlier screenshot for detail comparison:
    Spoiler: show
    VallesMarinerisImage2.jpg
    VallesMarinerisImage2.jpg (209.38 KiB) Viewed 13312 times
  • Exporting the terrain as a TPM file from TresEd resulted in a 246MB (!) TPM file... for comparison, that TPM I created containing all Trespasser levels (the one that took almost 30 hours) was 281MB, JPDS's 4096m*4096m terrain saved as a TPM was 38MB, the TPM from exporting the terrain previously created in MAX with 512*512 subdivisions was 60MB, the one with 128*128 subdivisions was 3.8MB (so I'm guessing one with 256*256 subdivisions would be like 15MB), and Trespasser's terrains overall tend to be under 10MB when saved as TPM files...
  • Tried importing the 246MB TPM into MAX to generate a TRR file and fix the errors using GUIapp, but it's still loading after almost 2 hours...
  • Also tried exporting a TPM from MAX after importing a TRI file of the 512*512 subdivisions terrain, and yes, you guessed right, still waiting after over an hour, too...
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Re: Some terrains

Post by Draconisaurus »

Wouldn't it be cool if we had a database all all sorts of technical specs about Tres such as this... I guess it's floating around in the collective subconscious, too heavy for us to carry into IRL... *sigh*
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Re: Some terrains

Post by machf »

More tests...

I used 256*256 subdivisions, that gave me a 1.5MB .TRR file, a 144KB .WTD file and a 3.05MB .TRI file after converting the WTD. But the detail is lousy, here's what the same location from before looks like:
Spoiler: show
VallesMarinerisImage4.jpg
VallesMarinerisImage4.jpg (172.94 KiB) Viewed 13305 times
I also tried resampling the original 2048*2048 heightmap to 1024*1024 and imported that with TresEd, here's what that same location looks like:
Spoiler: show
VallesMarinerisImage3.jpg
VallesMarinerisImage3.jpg (212.17 KiB) Viewed 13305 times
I then exported the resulting terrain as a 105MB .TPM file. I imported that file into MAX (took maybe an hour, much more manageable than the 246MB one), and exported it as a 19.8MB .TRR file. Then I used GUIapp to convert that file into a 977KB .WTD file, which is "fixed" compared to the one just imported with TresEd. Here's a screenshot from the same location:
Spoiler: show
VallesMarinerisImage5.jpg
VallesMarinerisImage5.jpg (206.62 KiB) Viewed 13305 times
I used GUIapp to convert the terran into a 24.6MB .TRI file, then importedit back into MAX for comparison purposes. The one from the .TRI file has 380600 vertices and 759904 faces, while the one from the .TPM file had 951599 vertices and 845551 faces, and looked rougher.

If anybody wants to try it, I've attached the fixed WTD file too:
Mars001-1024.zip
(894.26 KiB) Downloaded 445 times

EDIT: and just in case, here's an in-game screenshot:
Spoiler: show
VallesMarinerisTPass002.jpg
VallesMarinerisTPass002.jpg (369.41 KiB) Viewed 13304 times
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Sound name listings for the Demo (build 117), Retail (build 116), Beta 103, Beta 99, Beta 97, Beta 96, Build 55, PC Gamer Alpha (build 32) and E3 1998 Alpha (build 22) TPA files
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Re: Some terrains

Post by Draconisaurus »

I'm sure Mars would be proud... At some point (possibly now), you will need to post this publically if you have any hope of would-be modders eventually putting this to use. I, myself, am unsure of what time I would wish for a Mars-terrain-based level. Perhaps if a Planet of the Apes mod ever gets support.
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Re: Some terrains

Post by machf »

I thought most modders had already become admins by now... :wink: I wouldn't certainly want to let the general public know anything until at least there's a plan.

And I'm testing first to decide what would be the best option for the terrain... remember, these are 8 terrains, I'd need to get all 8 ready first. I still need to give the 2048*2048 TPM import a try, BTW...
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Re: Some terrains

Post by machf »

So, I managed to import the 2048*2048 .TPM file into MAX after several hour, the resulting mesh has 2132776 vertices and 1895790 faces. Then I exported it as a 44.4MB .TRR file.

The problem is that, when using GUIapp to convert the .TRR file into a .WTD file, the memory heap ran out of space a little past the middle of the file... I'm asking Lee if it's possible to somehow increase heap size. Until then, it's not possible to fix the terrain generated that way...
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Re: Some terrains

Post by Draconisaurus »

Don't really have enough details to go by but it makes me wonder if the terrain it's trying to create is a little too detailed...
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Re: Some terrains

Post by machf »

Just over 2 million vertices... would you call that "too detailed"? :wink:
2132776 vertices and 1895790 faces, to be more precise.
Square size being 2048*2048, it's about half the theoretical maximum... (4198401 vertices, or 2049*2049, and 4194304 faces, or 2048*2048)

I split the terrain in 4 sections, "ul" ("upper left" as seen from the top in MAX) with 712671v/633509f, "ur" (üpper right") with 849261v/754886f, "ll" ("lower left") with 356321v/316735f and "lr" )"lower right") with 214523v/190660f. Those were each converted independently into WTDs without problems, then after that converted into .TRI files and imported back into MAX, and became:
ul:290442v/579543f
ur:339703v/678189f
ll:148445v/296092f
lr:92355v/184042f

Unfortunately, after merging them together into a single terrain (870945v/1737866f), exporting it as a new .TRR file and attempting to convert it into a new .WTD file, the same error showed up...

Interestingly, JPDS's terrain, being 4096*4096 in size, has only 121460 vertices and 242374 triangles... (that's after the "fixing" process, the original as you made it has 344256 vertices and 305981 faces)


And for comparison, the version imported from a 1024*1024 heightmap (resampled from the original 2048/2048 one) has 951599 vertices and 845551 faces before fixing, and 380600v/759904f after fixing...

It would seem that the problem, rather than the number of vertices, has to do with the number of faces... probably when they get past 1 million (or maybe 1048576, which is 1024*1024).

BTW, the heap size, which I omitted mentioning before, is set to 64MB.
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Re: Some terrains

Post by machf »

Made another test importing the 1024*1024 heightmap from the area around Lake Titicaca with TresEd, exported it as a .TPM and imported it into MAX, turned out to be a mesh with 1143805 vertices and 1016517 faces (less than 1024*1024=1048576 faces), then exported it as a .TRR file. This time GUIapp had no problem converting it into a proper .WTD file, then I used GUIapp again to convert it into .TRI file and imported it back into MAX, turned out to have 440981 vertices and 879927 faces.

The .WTD file has been attached to this post in case anyone wants to try it.
Titicaca1024.zip
(970.04 KiB) Downloaded 440 times
I must add that I've been analyzing the MaxScripts and found out that the reason the TresTeam developers used a 128*128 subdivisions square with displacement maps was because afterwards they applied tessellation to add further detail... by comparison, I've concluded that the best detail is achieved by using the method I described, importing a 1024*1024 heightmap with TresEd and then fixing the terrain using MAX or Gmax with the corresponding import and export MaxScripts together with GUIapp.
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Re: Some terrains

Post by machf »

So, I'm moving this topic to the "Trespasser levels and design" section, so the general public can have alook. Even though I haven't finished converting those Martian maps yet...
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Re: Some terrains

Post by TheIdiot »

machf wrote:So, I'm moving this topic to the "Trespasser levels and design" section, so the general public can have alook. Even though I haven't finished converting those Martian maps yet...
A good move, I think. Someone ought to have use for these. :)

Also, do keep in mind machf, that a terrain that is too detailed will almost certainly cause a crash ingame until it is optimized. The game engine will be overloaded attempting to draw all of those polygons as it would on ATX if you had too many objects loaded at once.
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Re: Some terrains

Post by machf »

TheIdiot wrote: Also, do keep in mind machf, that a terrain that is too detailed will almost certainly cause a crash ingame until it is optimized. The game engine will be overloaded attempting to draw all of those polygons as it would on ATX if you had too many objects loaded at once.
So far, it hasn't crashed. Remmeber, these terrains have already gone through GUIapp and are "Trespasser-compliant", so to speak.
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Re: Some terrains

Post by tatu »

machf wrote:
TheIdiot wrote: Also, do keep in mind machf, that a terrain that is too detailed will almost certainly cause a crash ingame until it is optimized. The game engine will be overloaded attempting to draw all of those polygons as it would on ATX if you had too many objects loaded at once.
So far, it hasn't crashed. Remmeber, these terrains have already gone through GUIapp and are "Trespasser-compliant", so to speak.
Even if GUIApp converts them without errors it doesn't guaranteed that they will work without issues ingame. The full island works fine to convert in GUIApp but unless you optimize the "stairs" IJ puzzle it will crash ingame around that area.
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Re: Some terrains

Post by Draconisaurus »

When I checked out the early versions of Mars you put together, I definitely noticed areas every here and there of random terrain over-detail, surely something to do with what happens between input and output. So definitely, these ought to be seen as raw resources to be optimized and customized.
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