Anyone work with the Source engine?

[RexHunter99]

However, Crysis does have all that.

Someone with the right tools could make new interactive objects out of trespasser meshes.

CryTek cant do what Trespasser does and was supposed to do. It has destructable, dynamic environments, but it does not have truly dynamic environments. Trespasser is one of a kind.

What do you mean by truly dynamic environments? Being able to interact with the world through the hand?

Because, while CryEngine doesn't have it, it can be done. The game already allows you to pick up a wide variety of objects (which, talking honestly, it's the core of Trespasser gameplay).

It doesn't have a truly dynamic world. And the term "Can be done" entirely depends on whether someone with the skills required, has the guts to do it and can be bothered to do it. Trespasser's "Hand" entity is the ONLY mechanic of its kind, no other game has ever delved into this kind of gameplay and no other game will sadly, because the companies who design engines are too scared to try anything exciting and new. That being said, the Tres Dev's also could have done better, for instance, having more than 1 stash, maybe using the number keys as inventory spaces, 1-5 would be great, then you could carry a revolver, a shotgun over your back, and some smaller items like a torch, keycards, etc.

[enigma]

What's dynamic in trespasser that can't be done in the cryengine, or any other suitable engine?

[RexHunter99]

What's dynamic in trespasser that can't be done in the cryengine, or any other suitable engine?

For one, Anne's Arm.
Next is the physical interaction the AI and Player has with all other instances in the game world.

When you play a trespasser level you drop into a vast expanse of terrain, something like 15sq kilometres, and all around you, you have hundreds of vegetation objects. Each tree is an individual instance with its own physics, AI interaction properties, etc, it casts a dynamic shadow onto the terrain, can be conformed to the terrain etc.
The terrain objects that comprise the terrain texture you see under your feet is also rather advanced, I've not seen a game pull off a similar terrain. Everyone uses multi-textured, tiled boring terrains nowadays, Trespasser terrain textures could rotate, scale, shrink, wrap, merge, overlap, etc. While the newer method is faster, it also limits you to roughly 4-16 texture levels of a terrain, even though the maximum available texture unit is 32, many, if not most computers actually have roughly 8-16 maximum, mine has 16.

Trespasser's instance system allowed for complex puzzles involving special components for machines, keycodes for doors, inserting cards into card readers, pushing objects over cliffs to crush dinosaurs, a one of a kind weapons system in which you actually have to aim the gun, which is why most FPS players hate the game, because they dont just point and shoot, they have to aim.

Crysis, the trees, and other foliage are not individual instances, they are part of a speedtree that groups clusters together, this is efficient for truly lush landscapes but can limit what you are able to do with the vegetation. Trespasser can have a TRex knock down trees, or the player hack a tree down with an axe, Crysis would require you to either code the situation yourself, or use some unorthodox and slow method to do it.

[enigma]

A lot can be applied though. Not all I agree, but certain things, unless you wanted complete remake, just more flexibility engines can compensate and can be capable.
The arm could be remade, even it were a new engine that would still need to be recreated which would be no easy task whatever way is taken. I'll use cryengine only as the comparable engine, its the only engine I know enough about. Unreal4, idtech5 could also be usable, just never used them.

I think the arm could be closely matched. For today unless it were a direct remake, I think it'd be one feature that gets altered a fair bit for ease of use, otherwise few people would put up with it today.
With time and effort the terrain painting can look highly detailed and very realistic, and with good foliage placement, no real need for lots of textures.
If you wanted to make a direct working trespasser remake, of course a custom engine would be better, but the cryengine is still fully capable of up to date remake of trespasser.

[RexHunter99]

A lot can be applied though. Not all I agree, but certain things, unless you wanted complete remake, just more flexibility engines can compensate and can be capable.
The arm could be remade, even it were a new engine that would still need to be recreated which would be no easy task whatever way is taken. I'll use cryengine only as the comparable engine, its the only engine I know enough about. Unreal4, idtech5 could also be usable, just never used them.

I think the arm could be closely matched. For today unless it were a direct remake, I think it'd be one feature that gets altered a fair bit for ease of use, otherwise few people would put up with it today.
With time and effort the terrain painting can look highly detailed and very realistic, and with good foliage placement, no real need for lots of textures.
If you wanted to make a direct working trespasser remake, of course a custom engine would be better, but the cryengine is still fully capable of up to date remake of trespasser.

Remember the difference between could and has is that no one in this day and age will attempt to recreate the Trespasser Arm system because they cant comprehend how it works or because they are just too lazy.
What also needs to be understood is that Source, UT and CryTek are all Run n Gun shooter engines, sure you can add some features to weaken those stereotypes but in reality they will always feel like a run n gun game.

I also see not many people really read the Trespasser Reloaded topics :/ I already proposed a way to improve the arm system so that the game is easier to play at a glance. One being that Anne can move her arm around the world and pick up objects just like before but things like Guns, unweildy objects and so on, would have predefined animations/poses in which Anne would hold them, that way its easier to use. Guns would have hip and ironsight fire modes, Anne would hold them with both hands, etc.

When Anne would grab a box, both hands would clutch at it in order for her to drag it around.

No CryTek's Engine would not be capable of a good remake. A fair or decent remake yes but not a good remake. Trespasser cant be remade in such an engine without the main feel of the game being lost during the process.

[machf]

Do you realize that with a proper positioning of the shoulder magnets you can already adjust the "pose" in which Anne will hold them?

[enigma]

Remember the difference between could and has is that no one in this day and age will attempt to recreate the Trespasser Arm system because they cant comprehend how it works or because they are just too lazy.
What also needs to be understood is that Source, UT and CryTek are all Run n Gun shooter engines, sure you can add some features to weaken those stereotypes but in reality they will always feel like a run n gun game.

I also see not many people really read the Trespasser Reloaded topics :/ I already proposed a way to improve the arm system so that the game is easier to play at a glance. One being that Anne can move her arm around the world and pick up objects just like before but things like Guns, unweildy objects and so on, would have predefined animations/poses in which Anne would hold them, that way its easier to use. Guns would have hip and ironsight fire modes, Anne would hold them with both hands, etc.

When Anne would grab a box, both hands would clutch at it in order for her to drag it around.

No CryTek's Engine would not be capable of a good remake. A fair or decent remake yes but not a good remake. Trespasser cant be remade in such an engine without the main feel of the game being lost during the process.

Games so far built on the cryengine have been the standard design of run and gun, but does not reflect at all that the engine is capable of just that kind of gameplay. So far a lot of games built with those engines are FPS but surely you know that engines are built to be versatile and go beyond that one genres style of gameplay.

Difference of opinion, but I would say it can be done regardless, it'll just work a lot differently under the hood. No, it may not be the same, but still, as long as people keep true to trespasser then it would make a great remake of it, and could be practically translated into cryengine right down to the puzzles working the same way.
To make a direct remake, a custom engine is the best way. Personally I'd like to see both attempts. Both would offer something different.

[machf]

Do you realize that with a proper positioning of the shoulder magnets you can already adjust the "pose" in which Anne will hold them?

When Anne would grab a box, both hands would clutch at it in order for her to drag it around.

Which also gives me the idea (or suggestion, maybe) that adding an optional "left shoulder magnet" could serve for the purpose of enabling the left arm to hold the object too, possibly in combination with a "left hand/grab magnet". Or maybe just the latter... you getthe idea, if that magnet is present, use both arms, otherwise use only the right one.

[GigaY2k]

What's dynamic in trespasser that can't be done in the cryengine, or any other suitable engine?

For one, Anne's Arm.
Next is the physical interaction the AI and Player has with all other instances in the game world.

When you play a trespasser level you drop into a vast expanse of terrain, something like 15sq kilometres, and all around you, you have hundreds of vegetation objects. Each tree is an individual instance with its own physics, AI interaction properties, etc, it casts a dynamic shadow onto the terrain, can be conformed to the terrain etc.
The terrain objects that comprise the terrain texture you see under your feet is also rather advanced, I've not seen a game pull off a similar terrain. Everyone uses multi-textured, tiled boring terrains nowadays, Trespasser terrain textures could rotate, scale, shrink, wrap, merge, overlap, etc. While the newer method is faster, it also limits you to roughly 4-16 texture levels of a terrain, even though the maximum available texture unit is 32, many, if not most computers actually have roughly 8-16 maximum, mine has 16.

Trespasser's instance system allowed for complex puzzles involving special components for machines, keycodes for doors, inserting cards into card readers, pushing objects over cliffs to crush dinosaurs, a one of a kind weapons system in which you actually have to aim the gun, which is why most FPS players hate the game, because they dont just point and shoot, they have to aim.

Crysis, the trees, and other foliage are not individual instances, they are part of a speedtree that groups clusters together, this is efficient for truly lush landscapes but can limit what you are able to do with the vegetation. Trespasser can have a TRex knock down trees, or the player hack a tree down with an axe, Crysis would require you to either code the situation yourself, or use some unorthodox and slow method to do it.

Ok, I have to ask. Have you even touched CryEngine2?

Practically all of what you just described, except the unique hand, CryEngine 2 already uses or could support.

Each and every single tree in the game is it's own, fully breakable mesh, that can be destroyed by the player or AI alike.

Painting the terrain in Crysis works by selecting a base texture that is tiled all across the map, and then you can give greater detail by painting over it in order to introduce variation in the environment. This can go from clifs, to beaches, to ocean floors, mountains, and probably some more I'm fogretting.

No other engine in the market has better dynamic lighting (practically everything casts a shadow). It's drawback is the lack of multiple lightsources, as each lightsource, being fully dynamic, hogs a lot of resource and anything more than a handful of lights kills the pc. This was one of the main issues adressed by CE3.

And people moding crysis have made incredible amount of interactive assets with the use of flowgraphs and LUA.

Sure, CryEngine has it's fair share of troubles. But you're really underestimating it.

[RexHunter99]

Ok, I have to ask. Have you even touched CryEngine2?

I haven't personally played wiht it no, but I have helped people who chose to use it for their own purposes, I have seen its interior.

Practically all of what you just described, except the unique hand, CryEngine 2 already uses or could support.

Please give me a detailed list, with examples I can try out of each and every little thing that the engine can do that i have mentioned, and do it like Trespasser does.

Each and every single tree in the game is it's own, fully breakable mesh, that can be destroyed by the player or AI alike.

No it is not instanced, it is grouped and handled as if it were an instance, grouping instances into a group removes special functionality, where as it gives you the added extra of a slight speed advantage, allowing for you to place more, but still maintain a steady framerate. Crysis can't, for instance, allow you to select a specific tree to perform a scripted action on. Trespasser can however.

Painting the terrain in Crysis works by selecting a base texture that is tiled all across the map, and then you can give greater detail by painting over it in order to introduce variation in the environment. This can go from clifs, to beaches, to ocean floors, mountains, and probably some more I'm fogretting.

:/ if you even knew what you were talking about, you would know that I already said that is the standard these days and it is called multi-texturing. It is also unrealistic in that terrain textures are tiled endlessly and cannot be rotated or scaled like Trespasser's can. Also remember that Trespasser also can have cliffs, beaches, gravel, ocean floors, streambeds, carpet, lino, tiles, pavers, stone, blood, leaves, grass, dirt, mud, etc. Crysis can't have more than 16 without compromising compatability with older machines.

No other engine in the market has better dynamic lighting (practically everything casts a shadow). It's drawback is the lack of multiple lightsources, as each lightsource, being fully dynamic, hogs a lot of resource and anything more than a handful of lights kills the pc. This was one of the main issues adressed by CE3.

I don't care about it's lighting engine, I dont want to see individual scales on a dinosaur glint in the dark or to see millions of shadows overlapping each other endlessly, it might be real but its uneccesary. People forget that graphics =/= game. Gameplay == game. So what it has dynamic shadows? So does Trespasser and Trespasser is 8-9 years older than Crysis. Trespasser also has advanced normal mapping, the engine even has support but it is currently disabled in the retail version, for point and spotlights as well.

And people moding crysis have made incredible amount of interactive assets with the use of flowgraphs and LUA.

I have yet to see a mod that I like the looks of from what the groups release. Pfff LUA, I have TScripts. Hell I started rewriting the TScript engine myself, its not hard. Plus its flexible and propierty.

Sure, CryEngine has it's fair share of troubles. But you're really underestimating it.

Every engine in the market has its problems. Trespasser's was it tried too hard to be something it couldn't due to hardware and lack of dev time. Halo 3's engine had inefficient particle rendering. Pokemon's engine is stuck to 2.5D because GameFreak are dumb.

Just because it has problems doesnt mean I think its not worth using, I just think that if someone were to do a Trespasser remake it would have to be from scratch. I don't want them to turn it into another run-n-gun, my Xbox is crammed full of updates and save files for run-n-guns a couple of RPGs and even less platformers, its the same for my PC.

[enigma]

Just because it has problems doesnt mean I think its not worth using, I just think that if someone were to do a Trespasser remake it would have to be from scratch. I don't want them to turn it into another run-n-gun, my Xbox is crammed full of updates and save files for run-n-guns a couple of RPGs and even less platformers, its the same for my PC.

Just because its built on the engine does not mean it would be made into a run and gun shooter... maybe if a professional studio took it on, it probably would, but that won't happen. Fans/indies etc would likely be able to do it justice, because they can do such a thing, I'd bet any engine its done on would be we'd get a pretty faithful recreation.

[Christopher]

I'd love to see some sort of test/proof-of-concept level done in Source or one of the CryEngines. If someone out there is capable and willing, I say go for it!

Discussions like this usually leave me scratching my head. And it seems (from my limited experience) to come up all too often when discussing modding. Who cares if the engine(s) isn't perfectly suited for the game? Who cares if it does something in a different way to the Trespasser engine? We're talking about a mod, not a proper "recreation". Putting up with some limitations is expected and acceptable. So long as it can do basic crate puzzles, do a decent job at an outdoor environment (heck, even a poor job on a more modern engine would be better than Trespasser's) and let you shoot guns at dinosaurs, you've got the core of the game covered.

Probably the biggest problem I would agree on is the lack of an arm. But - and speaking as someone who loves the Trespasser arm system - would it really be that much of a loss in the context of a mod? You only really use it to pick up items anyway. It may as well be fixed for the amount of time you spend using it to do anything other than aim a gun at a raptor (which you use the mouse for anyway). A compromise, but an acceptable compromise in my view.

And just to touch on the "run and gun" comments - you guys have played Trespasser, right? The vast majority of the gameplay IS run and gun. You just don't run very fast, the enemies are more spaced out and ammo is usually pretty limited. As a result, overall, battles are typically slower paced. So long as the mod didn't make Anne run like a superhero and have her tripping over 10 raptors every 5 metres, I think it would be fine in this respect.

So yeah, give it a go! It would be a shame to see such projects end up "Chris Doucetteing"* all the time.

*Never getting anything done because you're unwilling to compromise and the engine you choose to work on doesn't perfectly suit your vision.

[Second Illiteration]

I agree with Christopher here. With so few dinosaur games, I'm all about encouraging any new ones, as long as they have some cool dinosaurs. So I would love to see somebody try SOMETHING, why not. I only wish I could do more to help it along, as I'm sure there are others who feel the same.

[LtSten]

*Never getting anything done because you're unwilling to compromise and the engine you choose to work on doesn't perfectly suit your vision.

...just throwing in my views here, but I agree indubitably with both SI and Christopher, and I think the point made above (quoted) is pretty important. If you're going to work with a different engine, you'll struggle to make it appear like you wish it to. If you want it to perfectly conform to both your expectations and others, then you'd be better off starting from scratch - but that's impractical, for most. If something can't be done exactly how you would wish it to be, you should look at how similar it could be made: a comparison between the limitations (cons) and pros of possible engines to work with should be looked at, I think, and then decide to work with the one which will most substantially conform to either Tres, or what we want.

[Dragonlord]

Just skimmed the topic so bear with me if I miss something said here already.

So what exactly is the main problem you are missing in the engines? The arm? How about IK based interaction with objects? Stuff like that I did in my engine. It's not a true arm but it could be turned into one. Would actually require a lot less animations than I need to get what I have so far. What goes for the terrain system that's something I plan to implement in the future. I really like the Trespasser way of handling the terrain but no AAA engine I've seen so far can do the same. Closest would be MegaTexture but the resolution of that sucks as well as the disk space requirements (one level fills nearly half a CD already). So with that one is out of luck. What goes for graphics I think any engine out there would do the trick.

Anything else I missed which is a problem?