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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:36 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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Have you tried the level to see if it currently works as intended?

Oh, I think I see what may be happening here... those raptors are all INSTANCES of the same one. When that happens, well, they are "linked together" - any damage that happens to one, happens to the others as well. So, when one gets killed, all of them do. And the trigger fires, although you think one should still be alive...

I don't think the trigger needs fixing, after all... try it first with a different set up. Just create a test level with other dinosaurs where they aren't instances of the same one.

EDIT: tested it with a different level - EvaluateAll = true is apparently ignored even with different dinos and the trigger fires as soon as a single one is dead. So, it DOES need fixing. Go ahead.

Code:
ValueTable for instance 466 "Trig_DeadDinos-00" :

group Trig_DeadDinos-00 = {
    string Class = "CCreatureTrigger"
    string A00 = "NewRaptorCBoss"
    string A01 = "MyRaptorCBoss"
    string A02 = "Cerato"
    bool EvaluateAll = true
    int FireCount = 1
    bool CreatureDie = true
    group Action00 = {
        int ActionType = 31
    }
}

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Parasaurolophus
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Sorry if I was a bit unclear before.

Yes, EvaluateAll does not work. (Unless referenced through a FireExpression, but that's not important because there is no such reference in the original game, I checked that.)

However the issue now is that the original game worked like it worked because of that, and changing the code will make it behave differently. So the question is, is the way it originally worked (in IJ) better for gameplay, no matter how unintentional that may be, or would the fixed variant be better for gameplay.

Regarding the specifics of that trigger. It is my understanding that two raptors are teleported in if either one of RaptorB300-00, RaptorB300-01 or Albertasaur300-00 is killed. If EvaluateAll were to be fixed, both raptors and the albertosaurus would have to be killed before the two new raptors are teleported in as a secondary wave (based on the name of the trigger). I think more seasoned players than me should make the judgement call of which is better for gameplay, and not based on what DWI may have intended.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:43 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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Just looking at that trigger is enough to tell one thing - if it DOESN'T work like it was designed to (which is the case), you will risk more than 3 active dinos at once, in the original retail game. Bad idea. I wouldn't be surprised if that trigger goes with a common experience of frozen-AI dinos standing around upon teleport of the new ones.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:39 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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Lee Arbuco wrote:
Sorry if I was a bit unclear before.

Yes, EvaluateAll does not work. (Unless referenced through a FireExpression, but that's not important because there is no such reference in the original game, I checked that.)

Does that mean they should have used a separate boolean trigger using the creature trigger as its fire expression for it to work, instead of indicating the action in the creature trigger itself?
Quote:
However the issue now is that the original game worked like it worked because of that, and changing the code will make it behave differently. So the question is, is the way it originally worked (in IJ) better for gameplay, no matter how unintentional that may be, or would the fixed variant be better for gameplay.

Regarding the specifics of that trigger. It is my understanding that two raptors are teleported in if either one of RaptorB300-00, RaptorB300-01 or Albertasaur300-00 is killed. If EvaluateAll were to be fixed, both raptors and the albertosaurus would have to be killed before the two new raptors are teleported in as a secondary wave (based on the name of the trigger). I think more seasoned players than me should make the judgement call of which is better for gameplay, and not based on what DWI may have intended.

I say fix it. It's broken. It's not working as it was supposed to. And the raptors spawn further away along the level path, not in the same spot as the dead ones, so it has no noticeable effect whatsoever. Now it will work right in any other levels it's used.

UNLESS the practical solution is to have it work the way I asked in the first part of my answer...
EDIT: no, go ahead and fix it. Using the trigger as a fire expression in another one has the same effect. Using the "eavluate now" parameter in front of the trigger as a fire expression in another trigger makes the level crash as soon as it finishes loading.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:20 am 
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Parasaurolophus
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machf wrote:
Does that mean they should have used a separate boolean trigger using the creature trigger as its fire expression for it to work, instead of indicating the action in the creature trigger itself?

I maybe wouldn't use the word "should", but that is a way to trick the EvaluateAll parameter to actually do what it was meant to do because the evaluate now function uses EvaluateAll. If evaluate now doesn't work then that's maybe also something I could have a quick look at, if they had some bug in that code.

I could also imagine that it would be possible to make a trigger script that emulates EvaluateAll behavior, using the previously mentioned trigger script additions in the upcoming update.

Quote:
I say fix it. It's broken. It's not working as it was supposed to. And the raptors spawn further away along the level path, not in the same spot as the dead ones, so it has no noticeable effect whatsoever. Now it will work right in any other levels it's used.

The noticeable effect would for example be for players that don't kill everything that moves. Maybe they just kill one or two out of necessity. My worry is that that portion might feel less populated/dangerous, for players that don't go full-on killing spree. Now it's, you kill one of them and "oh no, more raptors!" and then there's running and screaming ;)

("other levels it's used", as far as original levels go, there is just this one trigger in the entire game that uses EvaluateAll)

Edit: I've fixed the evaluate now bug with the creature trigger, an original bug in its eval function.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:26 am 
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T-Rex Killer
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Lee Arbuco wrote:
("other levels it's used", as far as original levels go, there is just this one trigger in the entire game that uses EvaluateAll)

OK, then any other levels it's used from now on.
:wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:59 am 
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As a note... I am currently working with the CE sky stuff, and when using a BMP image for the cloud texture, the DDS sun will not be rendered ingame (although there is a hole made in said cloud texture where the sun would be). Fixable enough but worth noting.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:16 am 
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Parasaurolophus
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machf wrote:
OK, then any other levels it's used from now on.
:wink:

I can certainly appreciate that, and I wouldn't be leaving them without a simple solution even if the code isn't changed. They could in that case get it working by a simple trigger script, that I would include in the samples.

I'll see if I can play that portion of IJ myself today, and try it with and without fix to see how it feels.

Another thing to consider is that while the original author may have intended the trigger to work one way, the game was after all play tested with how the trigger works currently, and presumably they were ok with that.

Draconisaurus wrote:
As a note... I am currently working with the CE sky stuff, and when using a BMP image for the cloud texture, the DDS sun will not be rendered ingame (although there is a hole made in said cloud texture where the sun would be). Fixable enough but worth noting.

I tested that here and it worked fine. I did however notice one thing that you maybe ran into?

Cloud textures have to be alpha-based, so that it's transparent between them and where they're thin, and the sun is properly visible in those areas. That means that you'll end up with a roughly white-ish colored texture with the actual clouds in the alpha layer. Since it it's an RGBA texture, if you're using BMP it needs to be a 32-bit BMP not a standard 24-bit (RGB) one. It's possible not all image apps support creating 32-bit BMPs.

If you are using 32-bit BMPs and it still doesn't work, then maybe you could let me look at your sky definition file and the cloud image so I could debug it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:30 pm 
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T-Rex Killer
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Lee Arbuco wrote:
machf wrote:
OK, then any other levels it's used from now on.
:wink:

I can certainly appreciate that, and I wouldn't be leaving them without a simple solution even if the code isn't changed. They could in that case get it working by a simple trigger script, that I would include in the samples.

The obvious workaround would be a single trigger for each dinosaur's death and an additional one whose fire expression is a logical AND of all of them... but that defeats the purpose of having a list as an option. Which, as I was saying, would be desirable for other triggers, too.
Quote:
Cloud textures have to be alpha-based, so that it's transparent between them and where they're thin, and the sun is properly visible in those areas. That means that you'll end up with a roughly white-ish colored texture with the actual clouds in the alpha layer. Since it it's an RGBA texture, if you're using BMP it needs to be a 32-bit BMP not a standard 24-bit (RGB) one. It's possible not all image apps support creating 32-bit BMPs.

If you are using 32-bit BMPs and it still doesn't work, then maybe you could let me look at your sky definition file and the cloud image so I could debug it.

I think Drac isn't too good at working with alpha-layered images. Or the software he's using doesn't allow it. He's had problems before.

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Tres WIP: updated T-Script Reference and File Formats documents
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Lee Arbuco wrote:
I'll see if I can play that portion of IJ myself today, and try it with and without fix to see how it feels.

Another thing to consider is that while the original author may have intended the trigger to work one way, the game was after all play tested with how the trigger works currently, and presumably they were ok with that.

Ultimately, if you're so worried about fixing a broken behavior because it may change gameplay - make it an option in the .INI file (something like "FixEvaluateAll = 1"), so that (m)any of us who just want to have it the way it was meant to don't have to edit the level files themselves. Those who don't care just don't need to enable the fix in the .INI file.
And it should be very easy. Since the EvaluateAll variable has a default value of false, with the behavior fixed, when the .INI entry is set to 0 you only need to skip the check for it being set to true and it will keep working as if it were broken... no need to resort to additional scripts or anything that way.

(And honestly, I don't think Trespasser was all that play tested, seeing how they had to rush it. BTW, you should also consider playing the earlier builds of the game to see if it used to work as intended and then at some point they broke it...)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Parasaurolophus
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machf wrote:
The obvious workaround would be a single trigger for each dinosaur's death and an additional one whose fire expression is a logical AND of all of them...

No, that wouldn't be necessary. Aside from having fixed evaluate now of the creature trigger, which means EvaluateAll can be made to work using a BooleanTrigger, the fix I suggested was using a trigger script (that I'll include).

In practical terms that means in order to make a creature trigger with EvaluateAll=true work, the only thing you'd have to do was add a line to the T-script looking something like
Code:
string Script = "CreatureTriggerAll"

That's it, done. The rest of the trigger would be setup up normally, by listing several creatures and setting EvaluateAll to true.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
As a note... I am currently working with the CE sky stuff, and when using a BMP image for the cloud texture, the DDS sun will not be rendered ingame (although there is a hole made in said cloud texture where the sun would be). Fixable enough but worth noting.

Draco...learn the ways of .DDS format, my friend! It will save you a lot of hassle with hi-res textures in the future.

Ah, regarding the hi-res textures - Lee, it seems to me that using 24-bit .BMP textures to replace regular textures results in the new textures being loaded, but looking very bright and oddly-colored, sort of like what happens when you use GeomAdd to add 24-bit textures to the game. This doesn't occur when using .DDS textures, however, so it seems to be limited to bitmaps.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Lee Arbuco wrote:
In practical terms that means in order to make a creature trigger with EvaluateAll=true work, the only thing you'd have to do was add a line to the T-script looking something like
Code:
string Script = "CreatureTriggerAll"

That's it, done. The rest of the trigger would be setup up normally, by listing several creatures and setting EvaluateAll to true.

I still maintain that it's much simpler to use an entry in the .INI file. If I now want to have the IJ level work as originally intended (the trigger wouldn't have the parameter "bool EvaluateAll = true" in the first place if it were intended to work with any dinosaurs dying), doing it your way I'd have to edit and resave that level... if you do it the other way, you only have to either ignore the EvaluateAll parameter (treating it always as if it were set to false, which is what happens right now), or properly follow it, depending on the .INI settings.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:30 pm 
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Hey guys,

I have been trying to get Trespasser CE to work. Did a clean install, copied CD contents to disk and pointed there in registry. Vanialla Trespasser works just fine (well, as fine as it can).
But when using CE via tpass6.exe it looks like this:

Image

I have played with some settings in the .ini (without really knowing what I'm doing) to no avail. Anyone seen this and has an idea?
Using a 1080TI on not so new drivers (388.13) on Windows 10 x64.


*e*

Nevermind. Just figured out I'm a moron, I misstyped in the registry path. Don't quite understand why vanilla looks normal but hey ...
Sorry for this.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:22 pm 
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TheIdiot wrote:
Ah, regarding the hi-res textures - Lee, it seems to me that using 24-bit .BMP textures to replace regular textures results in the new textures being loaded, but looking very bright and oddly-colored

I have a handful of 24-bit BMP replacements that I always load, as a way to monitor that stuff works, and haven't seen any problems. Maybe it's something specific to the type of BMP you're using. As the "LevelAuthorReadme.txt" doc states
Quote:
but no compressed BMP or TGA formats

Make sure you're not using RLE compression when saving the BMPs. If they aren't compressed then maybe you could post one of them (as the original BMP file so I could debug).


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