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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:14 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
:? Well that does mean you won't get to discuss the beta at all :( We'll miss you. A new level called PH has been discovered:

Image


The plantation house/cathy's beach was incorporated into the jr level (or is it ij?), so that area being a separate small level at one time would not be all that surprising. Going through the beta levels, you could tell they weren't quite certain what they'd end up with.

I'm pretty much with Machf, Drac. Although I wish Mickey the best and have no doubt that the beta will re-energize interest in Trespasser, I have limited free time on my hands and would rather spend it finishing up the work Ops set out to do. Besides, being over 50 and slowly sliding into my grave, I may not have that luxury of time.

*Slugger: Wouldn't be a bad idea to send DapperDan an email again. I'd like to get in touch with Troodon and Wajas as well, but I don't have valid emails for either. I did notice MiketheRaptor here a few days back; I can't remember the last time he was here.

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:56 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
:? Well that does mean you won't get to discuss the beta at all :( We'll miss you. A new level called PH has been discovered:

Oh, I had already found out. But as Rebel said, it was merged into JR in the end...
Goodbye to all your theories of the PH being part of PV ever, BTW. You should have realized by now that everything shortened to 2 letters in the TPA sound names stood for a level... PL for Plains, PH for Plantation House, PV for Pine Valley. Remember one early interview where they said the game was divided into 11 levels? And the retail has only 8 (plus the TestScenes)? 8+3=11, now it fits.
It's more interesting to see that the Beta will allow you to set Max Texture Dim to 256, not just 128 as the demo and retail... that's something to incorporate in the next ATX, for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:25 pm 
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machf wrote:
It's more interesting to see that the Beta will allow you to set Max Texture Dim to 256, not just 128 as the demo and retail... that's something to incorporate in the next ATX, for example.

Isn't this what the registry hack accomplishes for the retail?

*Rebel, I'll send DapperDan an e-mail. Did I give you his address?

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:31 pm 
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Slugger wrote:
machf wrote:
It's more interesting to see that the Beta will allow you to set Max Texture Dim to 256, not just 128 as the demo and retail... that's something to incorporate in the next ATX, for example.

Isn't this what the registry hack accomplishes for the retail?


Yes, but it would be more practical for the average user to do it without having to edit the registry...

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:33 pm 
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Rebel wrote:
The plantation house/cathy's beach was incorporated into the jr level (or is it ij?), so that area being a separate small level at one time would not be all that surprising. Going through the beta levels, you could tell they weren't quite certain what they'd end up with.

Small isn't quite how I'd describe it, but yes I suppose it makes sense. I was not certain what to think after PV proved to have no evidence of the PH ever being in it.

Quote:
I'm pretty much with Machf, Drac. Although I wish Mickey the best and have no doubt that the beta will re-energize interest in Trespasser, I have limited free time on my hands and would rather spend it finishing up the work Ops set out to do. Besides, being over 50 and slowly sliding into my grave, I may not have that luxury of time.

I understand. One of the reasons for using a separate forum was that Sam and I agreed Paul would never really go for truly open discussion about the beta here at TC, which may be just as well anyway, but we've already had one new member who says he's been a lurker here for years and is now posting because there's a new, open forum to use. As Commander Adama once said, Never underestimate the desire for a clean slate.

Quote:
I did notice MiketheRaptor here a few days back; I can't remember the last time he was here.

You must be frakin kidding me. He's disappeared off the radar completely - no working emails that I've had (and I did keep in touch with him for a while), no facebook or myspace, no nothin'. I have been really missing him lately, hopefully he drops by again and will see my PM.. :( I have a feeling he just happened to be at a public terminal or something, though, and wanted to see how we were doing. I believe he's dropped off radar range to avoid being pursued for college loans he can't pay.

machf wrote:
Draconisaurus wrote:
:? Well that does mean you won't get to discuss the beta at all :( We'll miss you. A new level called PH has been discovered:

Oh, I had already found out. But as Rebel said, it was merged into JR in the end...
Goodbye to all your theories of the PH being part of PV ever, BTW. You should have realized by now that everything shortened to 2 letters in the TPA sound names stood for a level... PL for Plains, PH for Plantation House, PV for Pine Valley. Remember one early interview where they said the game was divided into 11 levels? And the retail has only 8 (plus the TestScenes)? 8+3=11, now it fits.

Then why haven't you expressed this theory before? :P There's also JU, but it's unclear if that was ever to be a level name or just short for "Jungle".. Anyway, I posted this thread the other day at Tresgame:

DracoAlphaX wrote:
So it's come to my attention that we now have many possible level titles, and alternate names for the same levels. Here is the complete list AFAIK right now:

BE/BCH
JR
IJ
JU
JI
JI2
PH
IT/TO
PL
PV
LAB/IL
AS/ASC 1,2,3,4
SUM/SU

Now if you compress all the non-JR "J"s into one possible level, that makes 10-13 levels (with the 1 to 4 ascents). If there were just 2 ascents, that would make 11 levels... Sam, didn't you say something about 11 levels recently? (You could also compress the ascents into 1 level if you want to have both JI and JI2)


Quote:
It's more interesting to see that the Beta will allow you to set Max Texture Dim to 256, not just 128 as the demo and retail... that's something to incorporate in the next ATX, for example.

You mean in the Video Driver Setup? Hmm.. If it's possible to make that work with ATX, I guess that'd be nice. Would be cooler if it were in the actual menu, though. In fact, that might be very good indeed, since otherwise many people do not realize they are running the game with half-sized max textures, which is automatically reset whenever the EXE runs on a new machine (dunno if this can be gotten around with an Installer, but Mike was going to make that and he's not around.. I think..)

EDIT:
machf wrote:
Slugger wrote:
machf wrote:
It's more interesting to see that the Beta will allow you to set Max Texture Dim to 256, not just 128 as the demo and retail... that's something to incorporate in the next ATX, for example.

Isn't this what the registry hack accomplishes for the retail?

Yes, but it would be more practical for the average user to do it without having to edit the registry...

Oh yeah, the retail. Would definitely be nice for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:00 am 
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Quote:
I understand. One of the reasons for using a separate forum was that Sam and I agreed Paul would never really go for truly open discussion about the beta here at TC, which may be just as well anyway


What I said was that we probably couldn't go for truly open discussion, at least for a while, as it would put us in jeopardy of getting chased by the EA lawyers :P

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:53 am 
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Draconisaurus wrote:

Quote:
I did notice MiketheRaptor here a few days back; I can't remember the last time he was here.

You must be frakin kidding me. He's disappeared off the radar completely - no working emails that I've had (and I did keep in touch with him for a while), no facebook or myspace, no nothin'. I have been really missing him lately, hopefully he drops by again and will see my PM.. :( I have a feeling he just happened to be at a public terminal or something, though, and wanted to see how we were doing. I believe he's dropped off radar range to avoid being pursued for college loans he can't pay.

I've seen him lurking sometimes, too.
Quote:
machf wrote:
Draconisaurus wrote:
:? Well that does mean you won't get to discuss the beta at all :( We'll miss you. A new level called PH has been discovered:

Oh, I had already found out. But as Rebel said, it was merged into JR in the end...
Goodbye to all your theories of the PH being part of PV ever, BTW. You should have realized by now that everything shortened to 2 letters in the TPA sound names stood for a level... PL for Plains, PH for Plantation House, PV for Pine Valley. Remember one early interview where they said the game was divided into 11 levels? And the retail has only 8 (plus the TestScenes)? 8+3=11, now it fits.

Then why haven't you expressed this theory before? :P

Because it's only a little over a week old. This confirms it.
Quote:
There's also JU, but it's unclear if that was ever to be a level name or just short for "Jungle"..

That's "jungle", not sure if it refers to JR or IJ. Probably JR, as there is no JR usage in the TPA sound names but there are several IJ...
Quote:
Anyway, I posted this thread the other day at Tresgame:
DracoAlphaX wrote:
So it's come to my attention that we now have many possible level titles, and alternate names for the same levels. Here is the complete list AFAIK right now:

BE/BCH
JR
IJ
JU
JI
JI2
PH
IT/TO
PL
PV
LAB/IL
AS/ASC 1,2,3,4
SUM/SU

Now if you compress all the non-JR "J"s into one possible level, that makes 10-13 levels (with the 1 to 4 ascents). If there were just 2 ascents, that would make 11 levels... Sam, didn't you say something about 11 levels recently? (You could also compress the ascents into 1 level if you want to have both JI and JI2)


Most likely, there were only 2 AS levels, and that "4" has some other origin...
Quote:
Quote:
It's more interesting to see that the Beta will allow you to set Max Texture Dim to 256, not just 128 as the demo and retail... that's something to incorporate in the next ATX, for example.

You mean in the Video Driver Setup? Hmm.. If it's possible to make that work with ATX, I guess that'd be nice. Would be cooler if it were in the actual menu, though. In fact, that might be very good indeed, since otherwise many people do not realize they are running the game with half-sized max textures, which is automatically reset whenever the EXE runs on a new machine (dunno if this can be gotten around with an Installer, but Mike was going to make that and he's not around.. I think..)


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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:09 am 
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If you guys have higher admin rights than me (like Sam), I wonder if you're seeing him while he's "hiding"...

And thanks for that bit about no JR. I am pretty confident now that the game would begin with the sequence BE > JU > PH... Now, IJ is the big question.
Image

There's not really any space for a level between PH and IT.. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:48 am 
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Just because the map/texture shows a certain area it doesn't mean the actual level uses the whole area... PH would have filled the gap between JR (or JU) and IJ.
Attachment:
SornaMap.jpg
SornaMap.jpg [ 507.52 KiB | Viewed 5956 times ]

The "whited out" area likely shows where the level was blocked so you couldn't go back, see how the end of JR is right there. You'd go around the level towards the beach at the bottom (was that the original location of "Cathy's beach" too?) and finally would join with IJ...
BTW, the "hidden valley" in JR 96 is open, I went through there and reached the monorail ruins...

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:58 pm 
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machf wrote:
Just because the map/texture shows a certain area it doesn't mean the actual level uses the whole area... PH would have filled the gap between JR (or JU) and IJ.

Jeeeez. Well that's not cool at all - I'm trying to get RID of the path which goes back around the town, and restore the original monorail path... :x
So there are two dilemmas, here. As I've argued in the PH thread, there are voiceovers which suggest that Anne had to search around hunter remains in PH for the passcode to get into Burroughs.

Me wrote:
EDIT: This just in. I bet some of these voiceovers may go in this level:

VH53: October 1996. The InGen Corporation is taken out of my hands by a vote of the board of directors. My nephew dispatches his team.
VH54: The hunters landed on May 13, 1997 deep in the island's south west. Most of them had worked at my African parks for years... they never stood a chance.
VH55: The InGen hunting party carried the pass codes for our perimeter fenses.
VH56: The hunters scattered, their pre-arranged hunting routes forgotten. Only a third of their number appeared at the rendezvous.
VH57: In May the rains came. The smell of the jungle was everywhere.
VH58: As I journeyed south along the coast, the air grew moist and heavy. Metal and concrete lay rotting in the sun and the rain.

The hunters carried the passcodes for the perimeter fences. This could totally explain how you'd find the gate to the town, but not be able to get in! You'd have to search for something with the fence passcode in the level until you found a hunters site which had something with it written down on. :D So we have a pretty clear initial picture of the level goals now, I think!


So there's this, which I have a strong conviction about. But at the same time, there are these voiceovers yet unaccounted for -

VA77: Power lines, now that's what I'm looking for.
VA78: Showers, coffee, air conditioning... Almost there.
VA79: What brought that down?
VA80: Come on Anne, you're up to this.
VA81: On the bright side, no more student loans.
VA82: These can't run more than a half mile more.

So these voiceovers come just before all the ones in the town. It clearly shows that she comes upon the power pylons leading in from Pine Valley, and follows them to the town, meeting the BioSyn heli on the way (btw, tatu discovered the crashed helicopter music in IJ 96 where the monolith goes in retail - seems that path may have been to find the crashed heli).

So! Your theory that IJ was gotten to after PH is supported by this (and of course IJ has always seemed to be an important level name). I'll be honest, though - I think IJ makes more sense, as a name, to come between BE and PH (since the new voiceovers suggest a major construction facility there) and then JU would have been what's between PH and IT.

There is still one major "sore thumb" sticking out - the terrain at the end of JR is the same as IJ, which if you shift IJ to connect there, leads straight to the town, and meets up where IJ2 would begin. I don't think this can be called off as coincidence, but perhaps the real explanation is not known. For now, I'm going to say that it's possible to have been "done" when PH was removed - JR terrain would have needed to be altered a fair bit in the removal of PH, IMO. Oh and I already agree with you that not all of the terrain visible in the PH image was explorable terrain - there are hexagon trnobjs in many inaccessible places in other levels. I would really like to see the monorail path being the upper (Eastern) boarder of PH, but.. Well wait. If the path was altered to its current JR state, I guess it would then follow up towards IT, still, though not quite as northward - which works with what you're saying. It also totally explains how there is no remnant of the monorail in what all we've seen of "IJ".


Okay brainstorming over! I agree, IJ may well come after PH. I just don't think it starts at quite the same coordinates as it does in retail, as that would put it right smack in the middle of what appears to be an important area in PH with some diverse terrain. Maaaaybe IJ1 connected directly to IJ3, and then IJ2 is actually a bunch of things borrowed from PH.... :|! THANK YOU

Quote:
The "whited out" area likely shows where the level was blocked so you couldn't go back, see how the end of JR is right there. You'd go around the level towards the beach at the bottom (was that the original location of "Cathy's beach" too?) and finally would join with IJ...

Yes yes. In fact it might suggest that JU (or as I think, IJ) had a largely grey terrain, like that, from all the construction going on, similar to what you see here.

Quote:
BTW, the "hidden valley" in JR 96 is open, I went through there and reached the monorail ruins...

Duh :P Also look at the ambient triggers. They are ontop of the ridge. If you shift the ridge over (in your mind) so that it is under all those billboards, it all fits. That valley used to be a lot wider.. And tatu discovered lots of stuff beyond the yatch beach's normal "extent", suggesting it was going to be a larger area. I also agree with you - I think this was meant for PH.


PS: What's that terrain square you have over AS? :| I better get tatu on that.. I'm pretty sure he already checked all the TrnPlacement-00 objects, and didn't come up with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:
machf wrote:
Just because the map/texture shows a certain area it doesn't mean the actual level uses the whole area... PH would have filled the gap between JR (or JU) and IJ.

Jeeeez. Well that's not cool at all - I'm trying to get RID of the path which goes back around the town, and restore the original monorail path... :x
So there are two dilemmas, here. As I've argued in the PH thread, there are voiceovers which suggest that Anne had to search around hunter remains in PH for the passcode to get into Burroughs.

Me wrote:
EDIT: This just in. I bet some of these voiceovers may go in this level:

VH53: October 1996. The InGen Corporation is taken out of my hands by a vote of the board of directors. My nephew dispatches his team.
VH54: The hunters landed on May 13, 1997 deep in the island's south west. Most of them had worked at my African parks for years... they never stood a chance.
VH55: The InGen hunting party carried the pass codes for our perimeter fenses.
VH56: The hunters scattered, their pre-arranged hunting routes forgotten. Only a third of their number appeared at the rendezvous.
VH57: In May the rains came. The smell of the jungle was everywhere.
VH58: As I journeyed south along the coast, the air grew moist and heavy. Metal and concrete lay rotting in the sun and the rain.

The hunters carried the passcodes for the perimeter fences. This could totally explain how you'd find the gate to the town, but not be able to get in! You'd have to search for something with the fence passcode in the level until you found a hunters site which had something with it written down on. :D So we have a pretty clear initial picture of the level goals now, I think!


So there's this, which I have a strong conviction about. But at the same time, there are these voiceovers yet unaccounted for -

VA77: Power lines, now that's what I'm looking for.
VA78: Showers, coffee, air conditioning... Almost there.
VA79: What brought that down?
VA80: Come on Anne, you're up to this.
VA81: On the bright side, no more student loans.
VA82: These can't run more than a half mile more.

So these voiceovers come just before all the ones in the town. It clearly shows that she comes upon the power pylons leading in from Pine Valley, and follows them to the town, meeting the BioSyn heli on the way (btw, tatu discovered the crashed helicopter music in IJ 96 where the monolith goes in retail - seems that path may have been to find the crashed heli).

Why PV? It's more likely that those are the pylons in IJ leading to the Town... makes much more sense. Think about it.
Quote:

So! Your theory that IJ was gotten to after PH is supported by this (and of course IJ has always seemed to be an important level name). I'll be honest, though - I think IJ makes more sense, as a name, to come between BE and PH (since the new voiceovers suggest a major construction facility there) and then JU would have been what's between PH and IT.

There is still one major "sore thumb" sticking out - the terrain at the end of JR is the same as IJ, which if you shift IJ to connect there, leads straight to the town, and meets up where IJ2 would begin. I don't think this can be called off as coincidence, but perhaps the real explanation is not known. For now, I'm going to say that it's possible to have been "done" when PH was removed - JR terrain would have needed to be altered a fair bit in the removal of PH, IMO.

It's been done with the Town (Plains), the Lab (PV), and also with Ascent (Lab), in a way... and maybe Ascent2, I think. So it's very likely it was done with IJ (don't think the end of JR would have needed to be altered too much... it could, of course, after having incorporated stuff from PH... let's check old JR screenshots and see how far into the level they get)
Quote:
Oh and I already agree with you that not all of the terrain visible in the PH image was explorable terrain - there are hexagon trnobjs in many inaccessible places in other levels. I would really like to see the monorail path being the upper (Eastern) boarder of PH, but.. Well wait. If the path was altered to its current JR state, I guess it would then follow up towards IT, still, though not quite as northward - which works with what you're saying. It also totally explains how there is no remnant of the monorail in what all we've seen of "IJ".


Okay brainstorming over! I agree, IJ may well come after PH. I just don't think it starts at quite the same coordinates as it does in retail, as that would put it right smack in the middle of what appears to be an important area in PH with some diverse terrain. Maaaaybe IJ1 connected directly to IJ3, and then IJ2 is actually a bunch of things borrowed from PH.... :|! THANK YOU

Quote:
The "whited out" area likely shows where the level was blocked so you couldn't go back, see how the end of JR is right there. You'd go around the level towards the beach at the bottom (was that the original location of "Cathy's beach" too?) and finally would join with IJ...

Yes yes. In fact it might suggest that JU (or as I think, IJ) had a largely grey terrain, like that, from all the construction going on, similar to what you see here.


I see the gravel hill and pixelated terrain, with background fog, all in software rendering mode...
Quote:
Quote:
BTW, the "hidden valley" in JR 96 is open, I went through there and reached the monorail ruins...

Duh :P Also look at the ambient triggers. They are ontop of the ridge. If you shift the ridge over (in your mind) so that it is under all those billboards, it all fits. That valley used to be a lot wider.. And tatu discovered lots of stuff beyond the yatch beach's normal "extent", suggesting it was going to be a larger area. I also agree with you - I think this was meant for PH.


PS: What's that terrain square you have over AS? :| I better get tatu on that.. I'm pretty sure he already checked all the TrnPlacement-00 objects, and didn't come up with that.

That's AS or AS2, can't remember right now... they both occupy the same area but have a different graphic.

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:44 pm 
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machf wrote:
Draconisaurus wrote:
VA77: Power lines, now that's what I'm looking for.
VA78: Showers, coffee, air conditioning... Almost there.
VA79: What brought that down?
VA80: Come on Anne, you're up to this.
VA81: On the bright side, no more student loans.
VA82: These can't run more than a half mile more.

So these voiceovers come just before all the ones in the town. It clearly shows that she comes upon the power pylons leading in from Pine Valley, and follows them to the town, meeting the BioSyn heli on the way (btw, tatu discovered the crashed helicopter music in IJ 96 where the monolith goes in retail - seems that path may have been to find the crashed heli).

Why PV? It's more likely that those are the pylons in IJ leading to the Town... makes much more sense. Think about it.


Erm! Read again. Leading in FROM PV. I mean the ones that come over the hill in "IJ3", from PV. :nerd: We're on the same page with that.

Quote:
That's AS or AS2, can't remember right now... they both occupy the same area but have a different graphic.

Yes yes but where did you get that image? And I think it's of AS, because IIRC AS2 doesn't bother to have any ocean boarder textures.

Oh and btw. I figured out that the base textures were probably created in order to produce terrain palettes which would support all of a level's terrain objects. IJ build 96 actually uses the palette from the PHbase.

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:15 pm 
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Draconisaurus wrote:

Erm! Read again. Leading in FROM PV. I mean the ones that come over the hill in "IJ3", from PV. :nerd: We're on the same page with that.

Oh.
Quote:

Quote:
That's AS or AS2, can't remember right now... they both occupy the same area but have a different graphic.

Yes yes but where did you get that image? And I think it's of AS, because IIRC AS2 doesn't bother to have any ocean boarder textures.

Load a level into TresEd, extract the level info as text, then search for the string "baset2.bmp" and you'll find all those.
as2_pid.txt.csv contains
Code:
6952,0,"Map\as2\TAS2Baset2.bmp","",""

as_pid.txt.csv contains
Code:
7377,0,"Map\as\TASBaset2.bmp","",""

be_pid.txt.csv contains
Code:
7123,0,"Map\be\TBEBaset2.bmp","",""

ij_pid.txt.csv contains
Code:
14800,0,"Map\ij\TPHBaset2.bmp","",""","",""

it_pid.txt.csv contains nothing of the sort (may have a different name)
jr_pid.txt.csv contains
Code:
11010,0,"Map\jr\TJRBaset2.bmp","",""

lab_pid.txt.csv contains
Code:
13182,0,"Map\Lab\TPVBaset2.bmp","",""

pv_pid.txt.csv contains
Code:
11742,0,"Map\pv\TPVBaset2.bmp","",""","",""

TestScene_pid.txt.csv contains
Code:
2262,0,"Map\TestScene\TPVBaset2.bmp","",""

The use the PID block number with SWPext to extract the corresponding textures.
Quote:
Oh and btw. I figured out that the base textures were probably created in order to produce terrain palettes which would support all of a level's terrain objects. IJ build 96 actually uses the palette from the PHbase.

Looks like you're right, that's possibly the best reason for them to exist, especially if you look at the one from JR.

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:53 pm 
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IT's terrain placement cube uses the IJ Beta base terrain texture (That green and muddy jungle cover) rather than a level base.

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 Post subject: Re: Website maintenance
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:07 pm 
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machf wrote:
Load a level into TresEd, extract the level info as text, then search for the string "baset2.bmp" and you'll find all those.
[...]
The use the PID block number with SWPext to extract the corresponding textures.

Aha. Those were all on TrnPlacement cubes. Lol damn you got me excited there for a moment... BE's base is the older PV terrain :lol:

Quote:
Quote:
Oh and btw. I figured out that the base textures were probably created in order to produce terrain palettes which would support all of a level's terrain objects. IJ build 96 actually uses the palette from the PHbase.

Looks like you're right, that's possibly the best reason for them to exist, especially if you look at the one from JR.

Eh? JR's is only solid green... But I'll bet well enough that it does use the JR 96 terrain palette.

And yeah, wanted to split this earlier too but time is not in large quantities.. Doing so now.

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